My Skepticism about Standardized Testing: From the father of “MI”

I am often asked about assessing the multiple intelligences: Wouldn’t it be great if we could administer a battery of tests, at the end of which one could give all persons their “MI profile?”

While respecting those who have attempted to create “MI tests,” I have hesitations about this aspiration. To be sure, we have adequate tests of linguistic and logical-mathematical intelligence; and there are assessments which are at least relevant for some of the other intelligences. But I have been dubious about the whole “testing route”—because all too often it involves snap judgments based on a few targeted items, rather than a full-fledged and well-rounded picture of a person’s cognitive strengths—and challenges. 

This skepticism cloaks a personal paradox. On the one hand, as a young person, I was a very good test taker—I did well on SATs, GREs, and, presumably, IQ tests. Yet at the same time, I have also been a staunch critic of standardized tests and have been actively involved in the creation of alternative forms of assessment.

One reason for the critical attitude is presented in my recently published memoir. Let me quote the relevant passage here: 

In 1956, the year of my bar mitzvah, my parents took me on a five-day trip to Hoboken, New Jersey, to have me “tested.” My parents had a bright child on their hands and, as immigrants who had not themselves received a higher education, evidently did not quite know what to do with me. I stood out with respect both to perfor­mance on schoolwork and to my prowess on the piano (no one cared about drilling!) I hasten to add that I stood out in Scranton, Pennsylvania, then a city of no more than a hundred thousand per­sons, many elderly, with perhaps a thousand youngsters in my age range. There is no way of knowing whether I would have stood out in a larger and less economically depressed area. In any event, vari­ous family friends, as well as teachers and the rabbi, had suggested to my parents that I receive informed advice from trained experts. For a few hundred dollars, one could take a full battery of psycholog­ical tests at the Stevens Institute of Technology.

I have only the dimmest memory of the testing itself. It took a number of days and involved a variety of instruments. I have made several attempts to secure the actual test results or at least a list of the kinds of tests that were administered in the middle 1950s, but to no avail. I suspect that I received a full gamut of cognitive tests and, in all probability, also measures of personality, motivation, occupa­tional skills and aspirations, and other psychological constructs of the day.

But one scene is permanently etched in my memory. On the last day, we were called into the chief clinician’s office, and there I heard sentences to this effect: “Mr. and Mrs. Gardner, Howard is a bright child. He can probably do most anything. But he has special gifts in the clerical area.” 

These words stunned me. I had been presented with literally doz­ens of instruments and had filled them out patiently and carefully. But apparently where I stood out, did especially well was in tasks that I considered, and still consider, completely mindless. In a prototypi­cal clerical test, the subject has to look at long strings of numbers or letters and cross out all that belong—or do not belong—to a specific category (say, cross out all of the t’s or every other even number). This is a task that any trained monkey or pigeon could presumably have carried out, and today of course we would allocate such tasks to simple pattern-recognizing devices. Why had my family traveled for a week, spent hundreds of dollars (the equivalent of a few thousand dollars today), to learn something that anyone could have easily seen and that—as far I could tell—had absolutely no bearing on future career or life choices that I might or should make? As far as I was concerned, Hoboken was hokum!

The other day I had a frustrating experience which resurfaced the reasons for my skepticism re standardized testing. To enter Harvard’s campus these days, one needs to go to a website, called “Crimson Clear,” and answer a set of questions. I’ve been doing this unproblematically for several weeks. But last week, I was summarily rejected. This experience was frustrating; I needed to go into my office, I had no symptoms, and I wondered what had gone wrong. It was necessary—and anxiety-provoking to wait until the next day to find out. It turns out that I had read (or more precisely skimmed) one question too quickly and had answered “yes” rather than “no.” Not to be mysterious—the question read “Have you been within six feet of anyone who has tested positively for the virus?” Of course, I would not have tried to enter campus had I been exposed to someone with COVID. But being in a hurry, I had just glanced at the question and spit out an answer that was wrong!

An advocate of tests might properly respond “Well, we want to know whether you read carefully, and you don’t.”  And certainly, if I had been taking a college entrance or some other high-stake exam, I would have been more prudent. But in general, when it comes to high-stake situations—whether it involves gaining admission to college, avoiding getting seriously ill, or infecting others—I opt for another “more authentic” means of assessment.

Interview With Harvard Advanced Leadership Initiative Social Impact Review

Howard Gardner was recently interviewed for the Harvard Advanced Leadership Initiative (ALI) Social Impact Review by R. Bruce Rich, Chairman of EL Education and 2020 ALI Fellow. In the interview (click here for link) Gardner discusses among other things, his new intellectual memoir, how writing a book about the theory of multiple intelligences changed his life, the goals of education, and what it means to be good and do good work.

The interview is reproduced in full below.

Professor Howard Gardner Discusses His Memoir, A Synthesizing Mind, with 2020 Harvard ALI Fellow R. Bruce Rich

By R. Bruce Rich

Howard Gardner, the John H. and Elizabeth A. Hobbs Research Professor of Cognition and Education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, has had a distinguished career as an innovative educator and psychologist.  His teaching and scholarship have influenced generations of researchers, education practitioners and students.  Professor Gardner recently agreed to be interviewed for the Harvard ALI Social Impact Review about his recently published memoir, A Synthesizing Mind: A Memoir from the Creator of Multiple Intelligences Theory.

Bruce Rich:  What motivated you to write your memoir?

Howard Gardner:  As I reflected on my work in the spheres of psychology and education, and considered preparing an intellectual memoir, I became interested in how my own mind works.  It turns out that I have a synthesizing mind.  And so, in A Synthesizing Mind, I have tried to describe the workings of such a mind and to suggest some broader educational lessons.

Rich:  What are the attributes of a synthesizing mind?

Gardner:  Synthesizers decide on a topic or problem of interest - often of general interest (like intelligence or leadership or creativity, to mention three topics that I have investigated).  Synthesizers read, survey, and study broadly and deeply - they might well carry out surveys or interviews.  They (or we!) constantly put forth charts, diagrams, equations, metaphors, poems - any expression in any medium - that helps to organize the vast amounts of material.  With time, the synthesis is viable enough to test on other knowledgeable or interested persons.  And so, the process of critique and revision begins.

Synthesis is neither science nor journalism.  But ultimately, the synthesis needs to be tested publicly - and if it is accepted, it may well change how individuals think, and even how they behave.  I think that is what has happened with the “theory of multiple intelligences” (MI theory) I developed - far more than with other topics that I have explored and then written about.

What I do, as a social investigator - or, if you will, a “soft” social scientist - is tackle a large problem (or issue) and put together the best account or solution of that problem (or issue) that I can.  But to the extent that I am successful, I may change the way that people think and behave in the future, thereby invalidating some of my findings.

Rich:  You approvingly quote Nobel Laureate Murray Gell-Mann as stating: “In the twenty-first century, the most important kind of mind will be the synthesizing mind.”  Why the importance to society of developing more such minds?

Gardner:  While henceforth much of intellectual activity can and will be done by computational devices, synthesis is a hard nut for programmers or algorithmic creators to crack.  That’s what Nobel Laureate Murray Gell-Mann had in mind when he identified and particularly valorized synthesis.  We don’t do much in education to help people become better synthesizers - and I hope that my book is a modest contribution to that educational effort.

Rich:  You have never characterized your work as falling neatly within the confines of one or another social science discipline.  Why is that?

Gardner:  I don’t accept the sharp division between disciplines like psychology, sociology and anthropology.  I believe that they blend smoothly into one another.  Yet academic disciplines have very strong identities and tight “codes of behavior” and interdisciplinary work seldom survives, let alone triumphs, on most university campuses.  As a result, the accumulation of knowledge is slowed down and perhaps even distorted.

Rich:  You recount that from an early age, you’ve been fascinated with how we handle ethical and moral challenges - leading to a twenty-five-year focus in your work on what it means to be good.  How did you become sensitized to those considerations and why they have remained such powerful forces in your ongoing work?

Gardner:  It is up to others to judge whether I myself have lived a moral and ethical life.  I have tried though by no means have I always succeeded.

But I know for sure - and my relatives and family friends can confirm this - that my parents, who escaped Nazi Germany, had very strong moral and ethical values and grounding (as did their own parents) and I was raised with a very strong superego.  In my memoir, I also tell about the powerful example that my mother showed in protesting injustice, and I could have added dozens of stories about other family members in other circumstances - as well as some negative examples, from which I tried to learn as well.

In my early scholarly work, I was not particularly concerned with moral or ethical issues.  But then I saw how some of my own ideas - particularly those of multiple intelligences - were misused.  And so, with colleagues Mihaly (Mike) Csikszentmihalyi and William (Bill) Damon, I began to focus on “good work” - what it is, how it can be nurtured and achieved.  And that’s the major issue that my colleagues and I have pondered for the last 25 years.

Of course, over the centuries, many great scholars, thinkers, and reflective persons have been concerned with these moral and ethical issues.  But even the most brilliant among them could not have anticipated the current world - global, massively interconnected, with powerful and uncontrollable social media, and the threats of climate change and nuclear war - the list goes on!  And so, every generation needs to re-engage such crucial issues for its time - and for the nurturing of future citizens - our children and their children.

Rich:  The psychology of the arts, especially as relates to music, has formed a critical part of your research and scholarship.  What has made this so enduring? 

Gardner:  My family was not highly educated - Hitler took care of that - but my parents and grandparents - as citizens of Weimar Germany - respected the arts, and they were happy to have me play the piano, read literature, go to museums and festivals.  I was very fortunate in that regard.  In college, I took some courses in the arts and then, during my post graduate year in England (1965-1966) I devoted more time to the arts than I have been able to do during any other time in life.  I went to theater or concerts or museums almost every day!

Then occurred one of those incredible coincidences that change one’s life.  As a beginning graduate student in developmental psychology, I had the opportunity to be a founding member of an organization called Project Zero.  The purpose of the organization - founded by Nelson Goodman, a brilliant philosopher - was to carry out systematic research - philosophical but also empirical on the nature of artistic learning and achievement.  (The name “zero” reflected Goodman’s sardonic assessment of how much reliable knowledge existed on the topic!)

In my formal studies I had already noted that most developmental psychologists thought that full development meant “being a scientist” or at least “thinking like a scientist.”  I knew that was a narrow perspective, and so I elected - as a second-year doctoral student - to become a scholar on the development of artistic capacities.  And, indeed, for the first fifteen years of my scholarship, that’s what I focused on.  I very much doubt that I would ever have developed “MI theory” without that immersion in the nature and development of artistry… as well as its disintegration under conditions of damage to the brain.

Rich:  You co-directed Project Zero from 1972-2000 and you are still the head of its Steering Committee.  How has the nature of its work evolved over time? 

Gardner:  Briefly, Project Zero began its empirical work with psychological investigations of the nature and development of artistic capacities.  But over the 53+ years of our operations, we have broadened our perspective greatly.  We now focus on the full range of human capacities, working with children as young as preschoolers and adults as wizened as corporate executives on all kinds of skills and capacities.  We have written thousands of articles and many dozens of books - my over half century involvement with Project Zero is my proudest scholarly achievement.  I encourage readers to visit pz.harvard.edu, read our materials, and perhaps attend one of our courses or gatherings in person or online.

I like to say that “at Project Zero, we develop ideas and give them a push in the right direction.”  We don’t run schools or museums, but we influence their activities around the globe.

Rich:  What are some of the principal findings over the lifespan of this project?

Gardner:  This puts me on the spot.  We have had well over 100 projects, perhaps even 250(!), and even now we have dozens of ongoing projects.  But here’s what I personally am proudest of:

• The arts are not simply entertainment.  They are rigorous intellectual activities, which individuals can master, and they enrich our world as much as do the sciences, though of course in complementary ways.

• Understanding is key to learning.  And understanding is not simply parroting back what you have heard and memorized - it is the ability to explain and to make sense of material that is not familiar but where your skills and schemas of knowledge are appropriate and applicable.

• The scholarly disciplines are precious human inventions.  Interdisciplinary work is important, difficult to achieve (as I’ve alluded in discussing “Soc Rel”), yet crucial both to understanding and to solving important problems in our world.

• The professions are also precious human inventions.  Unless we preserve them and honor their precepts, we risk going back to the dark ages.  We cannot take them for granted and we have to reinvent them to some extent in every passing generation… and especially during periods of rapid change, such as the present era.

• Good work is work that is excellent in quality, personally engaging, and carried out in an ethical way.  Such work is more important than ever, and yet the challenges to ethical thought and behavior are profound and need constantly to be understood and resisted.

• Play and creativity are precious human achievements.  They cannot be taken for granted.  They need to be cultivated and preserved, as crucial to human achievement and well-being.  But creation needs to be wedded to a sense of moral responsibility - what we have termed “humane creativity.”

• Knowing how to do something is not enough - one needs to have the disposition to use that knowledge - and to do so in a way that is moral and ethical.

THE LIST COULD BE DOUBLED OR TRIPLED.  And that’s just my list.  Others at Project Zero would have their own equally valid lists.  Having the opportunity to spend time with Project Zero has been transformative for thousands of persons - educators, leaders, citizens, over the years.

Rich:  You write that publication of your book about the theory of multiple intelligences “changed your life forever.”  What, in a nutshell, is the theory of multiple intelligences? 

Gardner:  It’s the following claim:  The single word "intelligence” implies that we are either smart with everything, average with everything, or dumb with everything.  By implication, there’s just one computer that constitutes the mind-brain.  Period.

That’s just not true.  And my “synthesis” of the evidence suggests that humans are better described as having 7-10 separate mental computers - ranging from linguistic and logical (captured pretty well by standard IQ tests) to musical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, bodily, etc. - which are not well captured by standard one-shot tests.  You can’t tell from a multiple choice or short answer test whether someone has a good understanding of himself, herself, or of others.

Rich: How was this work life changing?

Gardner:  I don’t think that I changed, but my life did.  I got many invitations to speak on many platforms; I became more of a public intellectual and was expected to have opinions on many topics - including ones about which I was ignorant.  I tried to meet these expectations as best I could without interfering with my desire to carry out further research, wherever my curiosity and skills took me.  I hope that I have succeeded.

Rich: How has the work you and your colleagues have done in the area of brain science aided your understanding of multiple intelligences?

Gardner:  Neuroscience became a particular interest of mine.  For twenty years I worked at the Boston Veterans Administration Medical Center on a neurology ward, with special attention to aphasia - the disturbance of language as a result of brain damage.  I also focused on the loss or diminution of other abilities, especially those in the arts, under conditions of brain damage.  I would never have developed the theory of multiple intelligences without twin experiences: studying brain injured adults each morning, and then working with regular and sometimes gifted children in schools and in the experimental lab, in the afternoon.

Each day I observed individuals - brain-injured veterans and ordinary (and occasionally extra-ordinary children) - who were fine in one area, average in a second, while impaired to some extent in a third.  And that’s the essence of MI theory.  Knowing that someone is smart in one way simply does not predict whether they’ll be smart in other ways.

Where the synthesis came in was surveying in depth several fields of knowledge (from anthropology to genetics), developing the defining feature of an intelligence, and then evaluating many candidate capacities on whether they met, or failed to meet, the eight criteria for an intelligence.

And so, while the theory itself can be summarized in a sentence - that’s its strength and its weakness - there’s a 400-page book, Frames of Mind, with hundreds of references, in support of its claims.

Rich:  You write about your disappointment at the misuse of certain of your ideas about intelligence.  What did you experience? 

Gardner:  Contrary to the thrust of any of our own research, learning or writings in the field, certain educators began mis-portraying our findings as supporting an unfounded claim: that different racial and ethnic groups had different profiles of intelligence.  That practice (more properly, that malpractice), too, was life changing.  I went public to denounce these unfounded claims.  And I decided to devote much of the rest of my scholarly career to the study and promotion of good work - which would include constructive use of MI theory along with awareness that the theory could also be misused, misapplied.

Rich:  Which takes us to your collaboration beginning in the mid-1990s on the Good Work Project.  What is that about? 

Gardner:  In brief, the goal of the Good Work Project has been to understand the kinds of work that individuals in different professions admire and why; and then to create materials and practices that encourage the development of good work, and that help to avoid the incidence of compromised or bad work.

In the initial Good Work Project (1995-2006), my colleagues and I interviewed over 1200 individuals from a range of professions - medicine, law, journalism, theater, as well as K-12 and higher education.  That mammoth project - ten books, a dozen new projects, hundreds of articles and blogs - yielded a simple and I hope elegant formulation of good work: it is carried out excellently; it is personally engaging; and, crucially, it is carried out in an ethical way.  (See thegoodproject.org)  Now, the Good Work Project is as active as ever and has benefited over the years from interactions with members of the Harvard ALI cohort.

We show this via graphic - three intertwining Es - which in English constitutes a triple helix. 

Rich:  Can you describe your view that education, beyond providing basic literacies, should have three principal goals: inculcating truth, beauty, and goodness?

Gardner:  I think that education needs to inculcate the basic literacies, in the early years of schooling, and to prepare individuals for a life of work, in college or professional schools.

But there are 5-10 years in between the literacies and the livelihoods where I think we should master major ways of thinking - historical, artistic, philosophical mathematical, scientific - which help us to understand our world.  These disciplines are the nonintuitive tools that human beings have developed over the centuries in order to determine what is (and what is not); what we should do (and what we should not do); and what experiences are worth pursuing in greater depth and why.

Rich:  You say that your most important contribution to experimental science has been your work on nonliteral language and the brain. Can you describe that work?

Gardner:  With colleagues Ellen Winner (to whom I am happily married), Hiram Brownell, and other researchers, I demonstrated the important role that the right cerebral hemisphere plays in understanding nonliteral language.  While syntactic and phonological capacities are facilitated primarily by the left hemisphere (in right-handed persons), the understanding of metaphor, satire, humor, adages, etc., involve structures and connections located primarily in the right hemisphere.

The details nowadays are much more complicated but the participation of both hemispheres in linguistic production and understanding is now broadly accepted by the scientific community.

Rich:  You have been a prolific and highly influential author of some 30 books. Do you have a favorite? 

Gardner:  It was most fun to write Creating Minds - I had the chance to enter the minds of seven great thinkers and doers and try to understand their minds better: Einstein (logical mathematical); T.S. Eliot (linguistic); Pablo Picasso (spatial); Igor Stravinsky (musical);  Martha Graham (bodily-kinesthetic); Sigmund Freud (intrapersonal); Mahatma Gandhi (interpersonal).  I could well have chosen other persons - indeed, in other books, I entered the worlds of musician Wolfgang Mozart and of writer Virginia Woolf - but the opportunity to look at first hand data and try to imagine how these persons undertook the adventure and took the risk of breaking new  ground was truly enveloping and exciting.

Though there were of course enormous differences among these creators, I was struck by a few commonalities: they all came from relatively stable home environments; it took each a decade to develop expertise; at times of creation, they were often quite fragile and needed psychological support; and once they had worked through a major project, they would move on quite briskly to another, thereby having a series of breakthroughs over the course of a lengthy life.

In another lifetime, I’d like to study other such “great minds,” especially persons with talent who chose to use those talents for the betterment of our world.

Most people would say that Frames of Mind was my most important book.  But I think that in the future, many will look to Truth, Beauty, and Goodness Reframed: Educating for the Virtues in the Age of Truthiness and Twitter and for guidance in what to focus on in education, how to convey it, and how to determine whether that education has had its desired effect.

Rich:  What drives Howard Gardner to keep searching for new fields to conquer?

Gardner:  That’s a delicate question.  At age 77 a risky and likely proclivity is to repeat yourself - typically without knowing it.  That’s a reason I like to work on new issues with persons who are younger and not afraid to challenge me - and that includes my own children and, I hope before too long, my grandchildren as well.  And of course, I learn every day from my cherished wife, Ellen Winner, a distinguished scholar, and a wonderful mother and grandmother, whom I met at Project Zero almost fifty years ago.

About the Author:

Bruce Rich is a 2020 ALI Fellow.  He served as partner for over 35 years at Weil, Gotshal & Manges, a global law firm where he headed the intellectual property/media practice, which spans litigation and counseling in areas of copyright, trademark, First Amendment, and antitrust law.  Bruce is also the chairman of EL Education, a nonprofit working to improve the quality of K-12 public school education in under-served communities.

Recommended for teachers "on the edge of burnout"

A recent article on the website upjourney.com recommended twenty books to inspire teachers who are feeling overwhelmed, especially during the pandemic. Number five on this list is Howard Gardner’s Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences.

In the more than thirty years since this seminal text was published, Frames of Mind has changed how thousands of teachers and schools around the world view education.

Gardner, the Hobbs Professor of Cognition and Education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, goes in-depth, illustrating his theory of “eight intelligences” that make up each of our cognitive profiles.

Teachers love this book for both its practical and theoretical models of meeting each student’s needs to help them best succeed. The book takes a comprehensive look across neuroscience, cultural studies, and human development to provide a new way of thinking about your students’ capabilities.

Frames of Mind is a book that any teacher might find useful. The full article is reproduced below.

From Upjourney.com

20 Best Books for Teachers on the Edge of Burnout

By Tiiu Lutter | May 19, 2020

Teaching is hard. Low wages, limited school resources, managing lesson plans, grading homework, and dealing with difficult parents–on top of a rigorous school week schedule–all add up to dissatisfaction, resentment, and exhaustion.

Before you know it, especially if you’re new to teaching, you can find yourself emotionally and physically drained, asking why you ever began to teach in the first place.

What we’ve done here is provide a list of the 20 best books for teachers on the edge of burnout. There’s something for everyone, from teachers kvetching about classroom nightmares (and how to survive), to educational theory, how to’s for dealing with learning disabilities, and some fiction mixed in if you just need an escape.

Whether you’re a first-year teacher or a seasoned vet, it can always help to reignite your faith in education. If you’re looking for some inspiration, keep reading and comment on your favorite books below.

According to research completed by the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education, 44 percent of teachers quit within the first five years.

So, how can you learn to love teaching again and mold your students’ minds for the better? A good read never hurts, so let’s get started!

1. Other People’s Children by Lisa Delpit

Winner of an American Educational Studies Association Critics’ Choice Award and Choice Magazine’s Outstanding Academic Book Award, and voted one of Teacher Magazine’s “great books,” Other People’s Children takes a radical approach in breaking down the classroom environment.

Delpit makes a convincing argument that the power dynamics in modern schools are anything but one-dimensional. The prejudice, experience, and family dynamics students and teachers both bring to the table are active players in every educational interaction.

New tools are needed to help make classroom environments conducive to teaching a diverse student body.

Told from a first-person perspective bolstered by anecdotes to help clarify and ground the text, Other People’s Children is an instant classic and must-read for educators on the verge of burnout.

If you’re looking to find ways to better address the role of prejudice and stereotypes in your classroom, this is the book for you.

2. The Element by Sir Ken Robinson

The Element takes a look at the lives of several prominent cultural figures in hopes of offering guidance to people hoping to find their passion in the workplace.

Robinson’s book is incredibly useful, both as an employee and as a teacher, as he presents actionable ways to help your students thrive in their environment.

Written by one of the world’s formative thinkers on creativity, The Element can help you better understand passion, determination, and how to foster them in the classroom.

3. Not Quite Burned Out, but Crispy Around the Edges by Sharon M. Draper

If you’re looking for some solidarity and frank conversation about the challenges of teaching, check out Not Quite Burned Out, but Crispy Around the Edges.

This collection does a fantastic job of taking a 360-degree view of education and tackles moments of hilarity, struggle, loss, and adversity in schools.

By the end of this book, you’ll feel less alone and have a slew of survival techniques and coping mechanisms from seasoned teachers at the ready. An uplifting, honest read–you’ll get to see the full range of the struggles and joys of this profession unlike any other.

4. Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol S. Dweck

In this groundbreaking work, world-renowned Stanford University psychologist Carol S. Dweck, Ph.D., breaks down the power of the human mindset.

Backed by years of peer-reviewed research, Dweck has found that success in almost any human endeavor correlates to whether or not someone has a “fixed mindset” (believing their abilities are fixed at whatever level they begin) or a “growth mindset” (believing their abilities can grow through effort).

Dweck provides a framework for teachers, coaches, parents, or anyone in charge of others to foster their students’ “growth mindset.”

“An essential read for parents, teachers [and] coaches . . . as well as for those who would like to increase their own feelings of success and fulfillment.”—Library Journal

5. Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences by Howard Gardner

In the more than thirty years since this seminal text was published, Frames of Mind has changed how thousands of teachers and schools around the world view education.

Gardner, the Hobbs Professor of Cognition and Education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, goes in-depth, illustrating his theory of “eight intelligences” that make up each of our cognitive profiles.

Teachers love this book for both its practical and theoretical models of meeting each student’s needs to help them best succeed. The book takes a comprehensive look across neuroscience, cultural studies, and human development to provide a new way of thinking about your students’ capabilities.

6. See Me After Class by Roxanna Elden

See Me After Class is meant to fill in the gaps your teacher training missed. Compiling the often hilarious (and occasionally shocking) stories of teachers from around the country, Elden uses these anecdotes to offer some advice, strategies, and tips to survive the hardest parts of teaching.

An honest look into the frontlines of teaching, See Me After Class is the ideal read for teachers who need some real-talk, a little empathy, and a lot of support from their fellow educators.

7. Ain’t I A Woman by bell hooks

While not expressly about teaching, Ain’t I a Woman by bell hooks is an eye-opening read sure to expand your ideas of what’s possible through education. This stunning book has become a mainstay on intersectional feminist reading lists, and for good reason.

Taking a deep dive into the legacies of racism and systemic violence against black women, hooks attempts to offer ways forward. If you’ve been feeling disheartened about the radical possibilities of education (and educators) to change lives and make our world a better, more equal place–this is the book for you.

8. The Confidence Code by Katty Kay and Claire Shipman

There are so many benefits to being a teacher, but working in a mostly undervalued job can often lead to low self-esteem over time. If you’ve become less sure of your abilities or are overcome with uncertainty, check out The Confidence Code.

Written by best-selling authors Katty Kay and Claire Shipman, this book looks to inspire reads to boost their confidence in the workplace. With some simple everyday tweaks, you can begin to foster your self-esteem and feel more capable in the classroom and your personal life.

9. The Burnout Cure: Learning to Love Teaching Again by Chase Mielke

Based on the research, lesson plans, and classroom experience of award-winning teacher Chase Mielke, The Burnout Cure provides a path for teachers to get back on their feet and loving their jobs again. Mielke takes the approach of working from the inside out, suggesting teachers first change themselves, and in doing so, change their classrooms.

The Burnout Cure hopes to make every reader a stronger teacher through internal practices like shifting outlook, awareness, and attitude. Alongside these behavioral shifts, Mielke offers clear steps on how to increase empathy, kindness, mindfulness, and altruism in the classroom.

When you’re at your best, you teach the best–The Burnout Cure can get you there.

10. Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking by Susan Cain

A feeling of disconnection with your students can be a significant contributing factor when it comes to burnout. For teachers who’ve struggled to reach quiet students, this book can help. In Quiet, Susan Cain argues for the Introvert, and against the ways our society can undervalue this population.

Not only will you learn to see introverts in a new light, but you’ll gain the tools to help them thrive in your classroom.

11. Today I Made a Difference by Joseph W. Underwood

One of the best ways to remember why you started teaching is to hear what kept other teachers going. That’s precisely what you’ll find in Today I Made a Difference, a collection of stories, advice, and insight from 28 “Teacher of the Year” Nominees.

It’s not all inspirational quotes and rose-colored glasses, either. Each story focuses on a challenge the teacher faced and how they overcame it. This book is sure to provide some heartwarming motivation and thought-provoking ideas from some of the best teachers in the nation.

12. Why Don’t Students Like School? by Daniel T. Willingham

Written by a cognitive scientist, Why Don’t Students Like School? takes a neurological dive into the brain’s process of learning in a classroom environment. Packed with tips to try out, Willingham’s book strives to make lasting learning experiences a reality for every student you encounter.

Broken down into nine easy-to-learn principles, teachers are sure to gain plenty of skills and ideas from this authoritative text.

“Dan Willingham, rare among cognitive scientists for also being a wonderful writer, has produced a book about learning in school that reads like a trip through a wild and thrilling new country. For teachers and parents, even students, there are surprises on every page. Did you know, for instance, that our brains are not really made for thinking?”

―Jay Mathews, education columnist, The Washington Post

13. The Book of Awesome by Neil Pasricha

If you’ve been stuck in a rut recently, The Book of Awesome is waiting to help you back up onto your feet and remember some of life’s simple pleasures. Teachers need time to enjoy just being themselves and reconnect to the everyday happiness that often gets overlooked.

Based on the award-winning 10-million-plus-hit blog 1000awesomethings.com, this laugh out loud funny international best-seller is chock full of sharp observations. This is a great book to keep around the classroom for those moments you need a chuckle and a little pick me up.

14. Teaching With Your Mouth Shut by Donald Finkel

Particularly useful for middle and high school teachers, Teaching With Your Mouth Shut is a reflection on how teachers can help their students become active facilitators of their own learning.

Broken into “case studies,” Finkel uses each specific example to illustrate ways of creating the environment for students to learn significantly.

Written as a conversation rather than a manual, Finkel poses questions to help redefine what teaching means to every reader. Taking a democratic view of education, Teaching With Your Mouth Shut will flip the script on how you model your lessons and student interactions.

15. Drive by Daniel Pink

New York Times Best-Seller, Drive by Daniel Pink, uses four decades of research on human motivation to reimagine how we can find satisfaction and achieve high-performance. Pink argues that relying on rewards–the carrot and the stick model–to motivate students and workers is a serious mistake.

Instead, he suggests we shift towards providing the tools to self-direct our lives, learn and create new things, and to make ourselves better people. Pink breaks down his formula for “true motivation” into three parts (autonomy, mastery, and purpose), elaborating on each one to help change how you think and transform how you live.

16. Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv

Though this book might not make you feel any better about the current models of indoor play, more and more homework, and lack of access to open outdoor space, it will surely inspire you to make as many changes as you can for your students.

Last Child in the Woods is an in-depth look at the ways our school systems and homelives have restricted children’s time in nature.

Louv argues that this comes with severe costs, but by returning to green space, we can help the next generation thrive. Based on research and anecdotal evidence from children, parents, teachers, child-development researchers, and environmentalists, this book both directly addresses the problem while offering concrete solutions.

17. I Am Malala: The Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban by Malala Yousafzi

Malala Yousafzi’s story is an inspiring and unforgettable reminder of how important the right to education is. Spanning across her early life, Yousafzi beautifully charts her journey from a student in Pakistan to an international figure of educational activism.

Yousafzi writes about why education is worth fighting for and how the power of one person’s voice, no matter how diminished, can change the world.

18. Up the Down Staircase by Bel Kaufman

An instant best-seller with over eight million copies sold, Up the Down Staircase has changed the lives of countless teachers in more than 50 years since its first publication. This inventive, funny, and complex book tells the story of Sylvia Barrett, a new teacher arriving at New York City’s Calvin Coolidge High.

Narrated through a collection of documents and correspondence, Up the Down Staircase masterfully shows what it means to be a teacher, and how they can uniquely better the lives of their students through care and learning. Equal parts poignant and light-hearted, this book is sure to help you remember what teaching can be at its best.

19. The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin

For teachers looking to escape earth for a little while, this award-winning sci-fi juggernaut of a book is the perfect pick. Taking place on a distant socialist planet, The Dispossessed grapples with what life could look like for a society based on ideas of equality and mutual care.

With some of the most beautiful and resonant prose in 20th-century sci-fi, Le Guin goes deep into some of the most pressing questions of social organization, education, and allocation of resources. If you’re looking to take a big step outside of our social norms and explore another solar system, be sure to pick up The Dispossessed.

20. A People’s History of the United States by Howard Zinn

Howard Zinn’s beloved text, A People’s History of the United States, is packed with primary documents from people whose perspectives have often been omitted from history books.

Taking a uniquely non-top-down version of American history, this award-winning classic will revolutionize how you conceive, remember, and teach about the United States.

Now more than ever, it’s vital to provide students with as wide a range of voices as possible. If you’re hoping to shake up how you’ve been teaching, this book will help.

What’s Your Favorite Book to Help Refuel Your Tank?

While these 20 books are certainly some of the very best when it comes to helping teachers get through burnout, we’ve just scratched the surface.

Whether you’re a seasoned teacher or just figuring out how to become an elementary school teacher, you’ve probably picked up some great tricks, tips, and books along the way.

On Good Leadership: Reflections on Leading Minds after 25 years

By Howard Gardner

Once I had begun to write about the varieties of human intelligence (Gardner, 1983/2011), people frequently asked me about the intelligences that leaders have—as well as the ones that leaders lack or do not need. As I pondered this question—which I’ll return to below—I formulated ideas about how leaders function, what makes for an effective leader, which leaders I have admired and why. As a lifelong citizen of a democratic society, it seemed natural for me to focus on voluntary leaders—people who are able to get, to persuade, to inspire others to think and act differently without forcing them to do so.

In Leading Minds (Gardner, 1995/2011) I portrayed 11 leaders whom I admired—ranging from university presidents, to military leaders, to individuals who—despite lacking an ascribed platform—succeeded in changing the minds and behaviors of many individuals. According to the cognitive view that I proposed in that book, leadership takes place as an exchange between minds. The powerful vehicles that leaders wield are not tangible weapons—they are stories. Leaders create stories—and they embody these stories in the lives that they lead. These “lives of saints” (and of “sinners”) are “existence proofs” so to speak. The evocative stories told and exemplified by effective leaders affect people; and, in turn, the people come to behave and act differently as a result of encountering the stories.

Today, I still believe this account in general. But events of the past 25 years have given me considerable pause.

By 2010, some wrinkles or challenges to my account were already becoming clear. In an edition of Leading Minds published the following year, in a section called “Leadership in the era of truthiness, twaddle, and twitter”, I reflected:

No leader today can afford to ignore this powerful trio: The ease of promulgating false statements; the detritus that permeates the blogosphere; and the prominence of the ad line and the gag line. Indeed the challenge to the leader is to counter these forces when they are inimical to his or her goals and to put forth a powerful counter-story that highlights truth against truthiness, clarity against twaddle, and a developed and substantiated story as opposed to a twitter-length teaser. As I write these lines, US president Barack Obama clearly understands these challenges; but it is uncertain whether he—or, indeed any thoughtful leader capable of complex thought—can be heard and understood above the din. (Gardner 2011, p. xii)

Of course the threats to authentic stories, compellingly told, and actually “lived” have been exemplified by the persona and behavior of President Donald Trump. But I don’t want to focus unduly on Trump because we hear similar contrived stories, and encounter analogous faux embodiments around the world—consider the words and actions of contemporary leaders—Bolsonaro (Brazil), Duterte (Philippines), Orban (Hungary), Erdogan (Turkey), Xi (China), Putin (Russia)… and the list could be easily extended.

Nor are these threats limited to the early twenty-first century. My cautionary words of 2010-2011 could (and perhaps should) have been applicable in the 1930s—in the years leading up to World War II—and no doubt in earlier eras as well. It has long been tempting for leaders to create powerful myths—posing as heroic loners, arrayed against the forces of evil—and to persuade an impressively sizable cohort of followers that what they say is true and that, as a consequence, their edicts should be followed. (Niccolo Machiavelli would not have been surprised). And as I pointed out in Leading Minds, a simple or even simplistic story all too often prevails over one that may be more accurate and more appropriate and more truthful, but also more complex.

 An Approach to Good Leadership

In recent years, as part of what we call The Good Project (thegoodproject.org), my colleagues and I have shifted our focus from what makes for an effective leader to what makes for a good leader. And in this line of research, we have identified the three key features of a good leader:

Excellence: The good leader knows the field in which he occupies an influential role, keeps up with developments, and draws on his knowledge appropriately.

Engagement: The good leader cares about her work, finds it meaningful, looks forward to carrying it out effectively even at times when conditions are not favorable.

Ethics: The good leader ponders the ethical implication of contemplated words and actions, strives to do the right thing, reflects on consequences, and seeks to do better the next time.

It’s not always easy to determine whether someone is a good leader. With respect to excellence, many leaders rely on previous knowledge and/or do not know how to proceed when conditions change significantly. With respect to engagement, one may well be deeply engaged in carrying out work that is compromised or even malevolent (see Shakespeare’s histories and tragedies).

My colleagues and I have been particularly concerned with the ethical dimension. In almost any position of leadership, there are certain well-established norms and rules which can and should be followed. In following such norms, one does not need to exercise one’s ethical muscles. 

The “ethical test” occurs when challenges arise for which the standard procedures are not adequate or appropriate, and when the leader recognizes this conundrum. I’ve termed this recognition the ethical “A-ha.” Indeed, if you don’t recognize and then attempt to deal with the new situation, there is no possibility of an “A-ha” nor, accordingly, for pursuing a better course of actions. 

In such challenging situations, leaders need to reflect on intentions or motives, the means at their disposal, and the necessity of dealing with the consequences of the actions that they undertake or choose deliberately not to undertake (Nye, 2020). Accordingly, we judge the “goodness” of leaders in terms of recognition, action, consequences, and lessons learned. And of course, the cycle continues throughout the tenure of the leader.

Here’s  a rough metric that one can apply in an evaluation of whether leaders qualify as good leaders:

1. They seek to determine the truth and tell the truth; and when they have made errors, they admit it and try to make amends.

2. They recognize the existing norms and abide by them, or are willing to challenge them openly and bear the consequences (which might entail civil disobedience).

3. When the norms are not adequate, or new issues arise, they publicly acknowledge this situation—I call this awareness The ethical “A-ha”.

4. They articulate and ponder the dilemma—they don’t claim to have all the answers.

5. They search for the best input—expert and political—including advice from a “team of rivals’’.

6. They make a decision openly, anticipate the consequences, are poised to change course as necessary, and to revisit the consequences of actions taken or not taken.

7. They indicate their willingness to repeat this cycle and, ultimately, help to bring about a new or revised norm of ethical awareness and reflectiveness with respect to the conditions with which they have been dealing.

A Word on Intelligences

As mentioned, once I began to carry out scholarly work on leadership, I was asked about the kinds of intelligences that leaders had. I formulated an answer to this question: Leaders need linguistic intelligence, because they are essentially story tellers; and they need interpersonal intelligence, because they have  to put themselves in the place of audience members or followers and appeal to their better angels. It is helpful as well if they have intrapersonal intelligence—though, as illustrated by the case of President Ronald Reagan, one can be an effective leader even if one has little inclination toward introspection. Other intelligences (musical, spatial, etc.) are fine, but they are optional.

When asked about Donald Trump’s intelligences, I was initially stumped—because he has modest gifts in language (several commentators have suggested that he is dyslexic, and his vocabulary seems to be quite limited); and clearly he has not an inkling of intrapersonal intelligence. This is not a new story at all—the long-standing saga of populism in the US.

Perhaps we should postulate a new intelligence—media intelligence. Because even if one wants to castigate Trump, one must concede that he mastered the medium of television via his long-running show The Apprentice and has used Twitter in a way which is astoundingly successful (Trump 2020). Media intelligence might be a form or strand of interpersonal intelligence, but one entirely devoid of empathy or of understanding of particular individuals (as contrasted with an appreciation of “the crowd”). And indeed, in the past, successful leaders have displayed mastery of the new media—Franklin Roosevelt (and, alas Adolf Hitler) with respect to radio, John F Kennedy with respect to television, Ronald Reagan with respect to movies, and so on.

It’s also been suggested that Trump has the ability to read the “spirit of the times”, a more significant achievement. That may be so. On the other hand, it’s equally possible that he has long had a litany of complaints and proposals over the decades and—for reasons unconnected to his persona—the spirit of the time intersected with his program.

Concluding Note

My goal in this essay is not to denigrate Trump or to raise other leaders to a higher status. Rather, I have sought to revisit my initial conception of leadership. Specifically, I have emphasized the need to take into account a fast-changing landscape; and the pressures to master the most popular media of communication. Also, I no longer take for granted a democratic society with clear standards of right and wrong and with a faith in the importance of the truth. Rather I have focused on what it means to be a good leader and on the properties and processes that a good leader needs when faced with challenging dilemmas. In a phrase, we don’t need more leaders—we need better ones; and we need to help those with leadership potential to deploy their gifts in pro-social ways. 

 ©Howard Gardner 2020

References

Gardner, H. (1983/2011). Frames of mind: The theory of multiple intelligences. New York: Basic Books.

Gardner, H. (1993) 1993). Creating Minds. New York: Basic Books.

Gardner. H (1995/ 2011). Leading Minds. New York: Basic Books.

Gardner, H. (2011). Truth, Beauty and Goodness Reframed. New York: Basic Books.

Gardner H. Ed. (2010). Good Work; Theory and Practice. Available at: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c5b569c01232cccdc227b9c/t/5e7e1b520a5e5d2a3e0677fc/1585322850147/GoodWork-Theory_and_Practice-with_covers.pdf

Nye, J. (2020). Do Morals Matter? New York: Oxford University Press.

Trump, M. (2020). Too Much and Never Enough. New York: Simon and Schuster.

Alanis Morrisette on MI Theory

In this recent interview with the LA Times, the singer, songwriter, record producer, and actress, Alanis Morrisette, explained how she uses MI theory with her children.

“My husband and I loosely use Howard Gardner’s Theory of Multiple Intelligences in unschooling our kids. The theory holds that there are different types of intelligences, not just one. You could have musical intelligence, verbal intelligence, naturalistic intelligence ... or intrapersonal intelligence, which is the ability to go within yourself. I was never taught about that in school. I was barely taught that at home.”

Alanis Morrisette has written about her take on the theory of multiple intelligences on her website and in 2017, she invited Howard Gardner to appear on her podcast. You can learn more here.

The LA Times interview is reproduced in full below:

By LIZ PHAIR | JULY 29, 2020

Alanis Morissette wants to change your mind. She’ll do it too. Spend an hour talking to her and you’ll realize that you like yourself more than you did before your interaction. She makes gifts of her observations. She never lets you over-share alone. Your life path might diverge from hers, but you’ll come away from a conversation with her feeling strengthened and understood. She listens; maybe that’s the rare thing.

Her breakthrough album, “Jagged Little Pill,” turns 25 this year. She was only 21 when she rocketed to stardom on that, in 1995. I am struck by how fearlessly she tackled taboo subjects in those early songs, how she remained unwavering in her conviction. She became a spokesmodel for a generation of young women hoping to claim their power when she’d barely advanced beyond her teens. In 2019, those same songs became the backbone of a critically acclaimed Broadway musical, and Alanis reasserted her status as a household name. You can’t think of anything ironic without thinking of Alanis.

We were supposed to tour together this summer, before the emergence of COVID-19. I was slated to open for Alanis and Garbage on their sold-out North American run. I can vividly imagine how epic it would have been: the balmy night air in the amphitheater, cellphone lights swaying in the crowd, Alanis belting out the soulful and stunning songs off her new album, out Friday, “Such Pretty Forks in the Road.” I feel cheated.

“But we’re going to do it next summer,” she reminds me. “There’s a lot of important work going on right now that we need to make space for.” Damn it. She’s younger than me. But so wise beyond her years.

Liz Phair: We were supposed to be touring right now.

Alanis Morissette: I know. I was having a moment of silence for that.

Phair: When was your last gig? I saw on Instagram you’d been in Europe.

Morissette: Yes, we were in Europe doing shows and interviews, and right as we were heading back to California, everyone started going into lockdown. What about you?

Phair: Check this out: I was supposed to be on a cruise ship. I am a lifelong avoider of cruise ships. I’ve always thought that the plague that would end the world would start on a cruise ship. But this was run by my friend, Jonathan Coulton. It’s called the JoCo Cruise, and a bunch of nerds and indie people take over the ship. We ended up flying to Santo Domingo on March 11th and flying right back home on the 12th. I have a picture of me on March 11th with this big-ass cruise ship in the background, like, exactly where not to be. It’s a photo I’ll treasure and be horrified by.

Morissette: The thought of touring with you is very healing for me because you were one of the only people — I’m going to start crying — who just felt really sane to me, even though of course you probably felt insane.

Phair: I did feel insane, Alanis. I still feel insane half the time. At the beginning of the pandemic, I was voracious and I was literally reading medical abstracts about the original SARS. My father was an infectious disease specialist, so I grew up with this kind of crazy ... this is right in the wheelhouse of both my paranoia and my expertise. In my crazy brain, I was like, “I will solve this.”

Morissette: We like our answers, we like our control. But this is a really great time to look at the idea of faith, the idea of trust, the idea of not knowing, and living in that kind of limbo grief, limbo fear.

Phair: But it’s hard to get back to being an artist in all this. That’s the maelstrom that I find difficult to create within. Hyper-vigilance and intimacy with self are ...

Morissette: They’re not bedfellows.

Phair: Right. Not many people can sit with themselves and go inward and investigate. A lot of people avoid it. But the pandemic has certainly forced people to do that.

Morissette: But for introverts and empaths, the internal world is heaven. It’s rich. Oh, my God, it’s so juicy in there. For artists and writers and I think moms too, it’s kind of a normal process to be like, “I need a few hours alone to get inside.” These days, I basically get it at 4 in the morning. When do you get your alone time?

Phair: In the middle of the night. It’s like some little spirit comes out of me, and the genie is out of the bottle. When the world is asleep, I have more room. During the beginning of the pandemic, I did this weird thing. I live two blocks from the beach and there was a bioluminescent bloom going on in L.A., and it was spectacular. We weren’t supposed to go down to the water, but I would sneak down with my mask and gloves. During the pandemic, I do my functioning things in the daytime, but my artist self has become a night-timer. There were other night-timers out there in the darkness; I passed a surfer coming up at 3 in the morning, wet from the ocean, who’d just done a session. I have all my big ideas late at night. I have all of my big moments of understanding.

How about you? How are you navigating through the pandemic?

Morissette: I’m so maxed out right now, with three kids [Ed. Ever, 9; Onyx, 4; and Winter, 11 months, with husband Mario Treadway] and a new album, that I’m accepting that overwhelmed feeling. If I resist it, I just create massive suffering for myself.

As a society, though, we’re being crunched into this corner of potential awakening, which I love. We’re being asked what matters the most, what do we value, what do we care about? Because in America, it’s always been like, “I want to look 20 forever, I want to be a millionaire” — or these days billionaire — “I want to be famous.” Now, everyone’s asking, “What’s the new value system? What matters now?”

We have to change everything: Systemic racism, systemic misogyny, systemic fricking everything has got to be dismantled. In business, education, everywhere.

I talk to a lot of people who are freaked out about having to home-school their kids. Parents need to cut themselves some slack. Because no parent is going to re-create what conventional school offers. My oldest son is 9, and we’ve always unschooled him. [Ed. Unschooling is a branch of home-schooling that promotes nonstructured, child-led learning.]

Phair: There is something really troubling about this drive to get our kids back into the classroom. It’s like we’re just training people for the capitalist machine.

Morissette: There are just so many different ways to go about educating kids. God bless Americans, we’re so ethnocentric.

My husband and I loosely use Howard Gardner’s Theory of Multiple Intelligences in unschooling our kids. The theory holds that there are different types of intelligences, not just one. You could have musical intelligence, verbal intelligence, naturalistic intelligence ... or intrapersonal intelligence, which is the ability to go within yourself. I was never taught about that in school. I was barely taught that at home. How does one go within and cultivate a world of interiority? For those of us who are highly sensitive and artistic, we go, “Yeah, yeah. Of course.” But going within comes with a lot of negative messaging: “If I go within, I’m going to be filled with fear and pain.”

Phair: My mental health relies on my ability to go within and write songs. That’s an essential part of how I ground myself. I almost don’t know what I’m feeling until I write the song. I find that the older I get, the more I end up weeping when I’m writing because there’s something unblocking. And I also find — word to the wise — that if I want to say something to someone, rather than writing an email or text that I regret, when I write the song, it just settles everything. Somehow, the universe needed to hear it more than that person did.

Morissette: I used to think that I could write songs and never have to deal with human beings. I’d be like, “I’m really angry at that person, so I’m going to go over here in a room and write about it and then never talk to them. It’s perfect.” But turned out, if that person walked into a room, there’d still be some unrest. People are like, “Oh, it must be so healing to write these songs.” It’s clarifying, it’s empowering, but it doesn’t necessarily heal the relationship itself.

I’m Canadian, so I’m basically passive-aggressive. I’m kind, friendly, and then I snap. I’m just a cranky little bitch. There’s just no way around it. Even with my band mates, I’ll just be like, “Mommy hasn’t had a lot of time alone today, so I’m just going to do my thing and I’ll see you guys at an hour.” And they’re like, “Right on, thank you.”

Phair: I’ve been working on learning how to lose my temper because I hold on to it.

Morissette: Anger gets such a bad rap, and it can be such a beautiful force. I mean, it helps us say no. It helps us be activists. It helps us stand up for ourselves, for others. Anger’s so amazing. It’s just that people equate it with something destructive.

Phair: Do you remember when I opened for you a million years ago? We went out to dinner one night, and you were talking to your label about submitting the follow-up to “Jagged Little Pill.” You’d just achieved the absolute pinnacle of success. And yet the label was saying, “You need to do this, you need to do that.” And I just was sitting across from you thinking, there is no end. There’s no amount of success that gives you artistic autonomy. There’s no amount of success where commerce won’t impinge on the art. If you hadn’t earned the ability to walk into an office, drop the songs on their desk, be like, “You’re welcome” and walk back out, there was no endpoint.

Morissette: You said I didn’t have the ability to walk in and drop the music and go, “You’re welcome,” and walk out. The thing is, is I did do that. Their response was, “She’s not very open to feedback.” I used to say, “I’m sorry, is your name on the album cover? It’s my name, my face and it’s my life. So you’re welcome.”

Phair: Did you ever feel pressure, though?

Morissette: A couple of times. I was like, “All right, I’ll re-record ‘Hand in My Pocket’ and see if it’s better,” even though I didn’t want to re-record it and I thought it was finished. Then we’d re-record it, and they’d say, “No, no, no, the original one’s way better.” Sometimes they’re like, “You’re a genius, but change everything about yourself.” Some of that for sure is patriarchy. Some of it is just how the industry is. Record companies are just not compatible with artists. I’m shocked that they even let us be in the same room sometimes.

Back then, it was a very guy-centric time. Labels, musicians: They didn’t know what to do with me. If they couldn’t f— me, they would ignore me. It was like I was an alien. I was going to sleep with them, or I wasn’t going to exist. There were exceptions of course, but that was pretty much how it was. A lot of men in the ‘90s would say to me, “Oh, I love women. Women are amazing.” I’m like, “Oh, no, no. You like to f— women. That’s not the same thing.”

Phair: You and I were both chicks in a male world writing from the point of view of being more than just a girl. I think we both saw ourselves as female but also, more importantly, human. A lot of female artists back then were either masculinized, like they had to hang with the boys and do more coke than them, or they were feminized and fit the hot girl bass-player tokenism. Intuitively, I knew I wanted more room. I wanted more territory for myself. I definitely felt lonely. Now, there are so many young women making music of all sorts, with their visions intact. They wear whatever they want. They make the video the way they want. They play keyboards, drums, whatever. They’re autonomous in a way that I couldn’t have dreamed of back then.

I would have been accepted had I just picked up a bass and played in a male band. I would have been accepted if I’d been a chanteuse who wrote songs and let them be directed by a male producer. But I had the audacity to get onstage and take a spot away from a guy.

Morissette: When “You Oughta Know” was first sent out to radio stations, the response was, “We’re actually playing Sinéad O’Connor, so we’re good.” Or, “We have Tori Amos in our rotation. We can’t add another woman. Sorry.” That changed pretty fricking quickly.

Phair: Thanks in large part to you.

Morissette: I saw that the wave was coming, and I had the surfboard. I’m like, “Let me get up there on the crest.” It was so ready to change.

Phair: The programming at radio stations used to drive me crazy! Thank God I went to Oberlin. It was a very politically progressive college, and it quickly smartened me up about how women are represented in our culture. Like, how many times a woman’s body was used to advertise things: dish soap, tires, real estate, cars. The female body was seen constantly, and their heads would almost be cut off, like they were practically in porn. I wanted to take all those female bodies that I saw and tell their story. That’s why, on “Exile in Guyville,” I took the Rolling Stones’ “Exile on Main Street” and gave the girls in those lyrics their own voice. I wanted to put the story back in the silenced hot bodies. Subjectify the objectification or whatever.

Morissette: What you’re describing, that hyper-sexualizing of women. … There’s a new song on my record called “Sandbox Love,” and it’s really about, what does sex look like post-sexual abuse, post-harassment? How you have sex after abuse is really at the forefront for me right now, because I’ve experienced so much sexual abuse in my past. And so “Sandbox Love” is about that.

Phair: I would argue that all women, because of patriarchy, and all men, because of patriarchy, are going to have to learn how to have sex after abuse, because in some subtle way, we’ve all been given an abusive picture of what sex and love is. Women may need it more, but men need it too because a lot of times they’re just pantomiming what they think they’re supposed to be doing.

When you come down to the best of what sex is, it’s this naked, awkward ... You know that space that you can hold with someone that’s so special?

Morissette: It’s intimate. Yes. I love it.

Phair: It’s intimate, and you don’t have your armor up, and you’re not showing off. The older I get, the more that is my favorite part of life.

Morissette: Everything, even trauma recovery, is all about just coming back into the body.

Phair: I’m so glad to see your face. I love women. Women are the best.

Morissette: We’re going to hit the stage as soon as it’s OK to tour. I can’t wait.

This interview was moderated by Times television